[DO] Ancient wisdom from beyond the Astral Flux revealed!

[iLikeCookies]

The release of Valley of the Ancients has reignited the DO discussion. I travelled through the flux and met the Ancient Gods, they instructed me the ways of the Offering. I am the prophet that brings you the true solution from the Gods themselves. But first we must lay out the implications of the current VotA and DO implementations.

The situation before the release of VotA involved 2 problems with DO
1. Missing without having another shrine to play on turn 1 likely game loss.
2. Missing loses you a card from hand.

VotA fixes one of these problems, and that is problem 2. So I believe that VotA is definitely a step in the right direction. Problem 1 is only half solved, however. In case of miss without other shrine, VotA reduces the penatly from having 1 less mana the entire game and 1 less card, to merely having 1 less card. (a normal shrine would have redrawn) There are special cases of decks that can use the neutral level (and thus not lose a card) but those decks will likely still suffer from a disrupted mana curve, as neutral levels aren't very useful early.
Another problem with VotA, is that it shuffles the deck upon DO miss, which disrupts deck manipulation strategies, where the player tries to use DO to move a certain card close to the top of the deck. Full deck shuffling exists only in SW to keep the idea alive that one day the game could become a physical card game. VotA shuffling is completely unnecessary considering we are in a digital space. Remove the shuffling, or just rework DO, so VotA is not needed.

Turn 1 is a special case when it comes to DO risk. It is the only turn where you didn't have a chance to DO earlier. It is thus also the only turn where there is an increased chance to not have a shrine played at the end of the turn. (If not using VotA) I present you a new DO/mulligan system that fixes both the discard problem, while also more completely fixing the turn 1 problem, all the while not involving the card counting disruption, nor disrupting other game aspects like the necessity to play a healthy number and distribution of shrines in a deck. A nice side effect is that it will stop people from adding cards to their deck as well, and thus unmilling themselves, without running cards for it. (How great is the wisdom of the Ancient Gods?)

Fixing the discard problem: Simple solution is to return the offered card.
Fixing the turn 1 problem: Create a DO step before the end of the mulligan phase.

The mulligan phase would look like this: You are presented 7 cards, and as normally, you must choose between keeping or redrawing. Next you may perform a DO. (Or not, if you don't want to). When both players finish these steps, the game continues normally by starting turn 1 of the first player.

This way, the player will always have 2 opportunities to DO before being mana screwed. One at the end of last turn, and one this turn. On turn 1, the DO of the mulligan step would be the DO of "last turn".
This drops the chance of being mana screwed on turn 1 from ~0.8% to ~0.065% for an 18 shrine deck, and from ~0.56% to ~0.04% for a 19 shrine deck.
Calculated using {(60-n)!/([60-n-k]!*k!)} / {60!/([60-k]!*k!)} Where n is the number of shrines, and k is 12 or 17, depending on DO system. (7 in starting hand + 5 from DO, or +10 from DO) Note that these odds are smaller for the 2nd player, who draws 1 extra card.

in short:
This maintains the need to play a good number of shrines in your deck, as you are still mana screwed by 2 consecutive misses, and multicolor decks must get a good balance of colors.
This almost entirely eliminates mana screw on turn 1.
This removes the discard problem.
This removes the player's ability to prevent deckout using DO.

If you really want to get rid of T1 screw completely, design VotA to interface with this new system.

VotA's text would be changed to "When you miss DO, instead of being returned your offered card, you may search a single copy of VotA from your deck, and place it in your hand instead. Shuffle your deck."

Not running VotA would be a viable option under the rules of this new system. The old rules make VotA a must include that disrupts deck manipulation strategies. The value of a single VotA in your deck that prevents you from discarding is incredible. Nobody will want to play without that. (well..)

[Drygord]

[Pentallion]

It is interesting reading your reactions. Your 157 predecessors were by design based on a similar predication, a contingent affirmation that was meant to create a profound attachment to the idea of fixing DO.

[iLikeCookies]

You fail to make points, if you have nothing to say, why say anything? Why avoid saying anything tangible by uttering the "oh another DO thread" tantrum?

[Maximvs]

So, are you happy or annoyed by the new card?

[iLikeCookies]

I like the new card. It fixes some of the DO problems, but not the anti deckout exploit. I've been using 1 of these in every deck.

[ripDreyla]

Haven't missed a single DO since the implementation of Valley of the Ancients.

So unless i'm mistaken this should be the end of the DO discussion. It's not like there is anything left to discuss. Those that thought it was a problem, no longer have to worry about that being a problem as long as they put one or two copies into their deck. So end of DO discussion as far as I'm aware.

[VanguardX]

Haven't missed a single DO since the implementation of Valley of the Ancients.

So unless i'm mistaken this should be the end of the DO discussion. It's not like there is anything left to discuss. Those that thought it was a problem, no longer have to worry about that being a problem as long as they put one or two copies into their deck. So end of DO discussion as far as I'm aware.

Praise the lord! Perhaps we can put this conversation to bed, and enjoy future cards that interact with the DO mechanic.

Another problem with VotA, is that it shuffles the deck upon DO miss, which disrupts deck manipulation strategies, where the player tries to use DO to move a certain card close to the top of the deck. Full deck shuffling exists only in SW to keep the idea alive that one day the game could become a physical card game. VotA shuffling is completely unnecessary considering we are in a digital space. Remove the shuffling, or just rework DO, so VotA is not needed.

Props if you actually use deck manipulation strategies. The vast - vast - majority of Spellweaver players do not. If you want to be able to track your deck composition there's a simple solution: don't play Valley of the Ancients (or Book of Spirits, or New Horizons, or the many other cards that shuffle your deck). You may miss DO more frequently, but you'll be able to track your deck status. Only you can decide if that tradeoff is worth it, but there's no denying you have the choice.

Problem 1 is only half solved, however. In case of miss without other shrine, VotA reduces the penatly from having 1 less mana the entire game and 1 less card, to merely having 1 less card. (a normal shrine would have redrawn) There are special cases of decks that can use the neutral level (and thus not lose a card) but those decks will likely still suffer from a disrupted mana curve, as neutral levels aren't very useful early.

1) It's a card game. There will be randomness, and your own calculations show the situation you describe happens once in every 125 games in an 18 shrine deck for the person playing first (less frequently in 19 or 20 shrine decks, less frequently for player 2).
2) It's worth noting - the penalty you describe is one less card. It's not like you're auto-losing once every 125 games. You're playing with one less card.
3) This effects your opponent as well.

Your suggestion seems like a solution in search of a problem. There are much more important things for Dream Reactor to work on than coding in a DO phase prior to the mulligan, and allowing the offered card to return to hand (which would make the Valley shrine far overpowered, as now missing DO would ADD a card to your hand, as you get Valley plus you get back the card you offered).

[iLikeCookies]

I agree that VotA removes the most frustrating parts of DO from the game. So I'm 1000 times happier with what we have now than before we had VotA.

I don't think that there is a choice in using VotA or not though. You always use it, because it is auto include levels good. Not having to discard is more valuable than potentially messing up your deck tracking. So one would always choose to include a VotA in their deck. I don't think that this is a meaningful choice, as you make it out to be. VotA being a necessity, destroys an extremely skillful aspect of this game.

We still prevent deckout using DO with the current system.

(which would make the Valley shrine far overpowered, as now missing DO would ADD a card to your hand, as you get Valley plus you get back the card you offered).

Also, as I wrote in the opening post, the new DO system wouldn't coexist with the current VotA. VotA would need to be changed if we were to make those changes to DO. The card might not even have to exist.

The new situation is way better than before, as I already said earlier. I just think it could be even better.