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Broader Card Changes - Suggestions

The game's community balance team discusses card changes here.

Re: Broader Card Changes - Suggestions

Postby Zadorec » Fri Feb 16, 2018 11:41 am

The Fuzz wrote:Orc Javelineers - make it two speed, but make it cost double Rage. Would make for a pretty solid mono Rage card, though i worry a bit that Rage Rush would just toss it in.

Yes, it is never used because of 1 speed, but 2 level 3 mana 3/4 ranged with 2 speed would be too strong I think.
Maybe increase it's mana cost to 4 then.

The Fuzz wrote:Goblin Arsonist - Make it distribute only one damage to your own guys, not two. With two, its dangerous to even put him on the board, since your 1-hp goblins are likely to die.

It wouldn't really be a drawback. It would be perfect to proc Rakhi.

The Fuzz wrote:Deep Sea Horror - this will never be played at 5 mana. Maybe make it 4 mana? It already costs double Corruption.

It is 2 speed, so it is strictly better than Hydra. Also it can attack 2 creatures. It kinda wasn't meant to be playable on it's own, rather as a part of Siren of the Deep Sea.

The Fuzz wrote:Elven Skyrider - would it be too strong as a 3/2?

Now with Moonlight Patrol being only 2 speed, it is not strictly better than Elven Skyrider.

The Fuzz wrote:Sunchaser Aurite - Maybe he could have 2 energy. or, have 4 speed on enemy turn (kind of like Protector did, except this guy isn't flying).

I have played this card in the past, I think it is fine, only the rest of nature is too weak.
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Re: Broader Card Changes - Suggestions

Postby SashaIr » Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:32 pm

ivko wrote:By making it WX we are losing two of the most common uses of New Horizons, ramping to level 2 and finding your missing secondary aspect. If you need to wait until level 3 just to fix your aspect levels, forcing you to go up a level you probably didn't need as your 2nd level, makes the card virtually unusable for that IMO.

We have the options to make is cost 1 more or 1 less for each extra (Wisdom or any kind of) level you have, depending on whether we want to make ramping easier or more difficult with time. This could work, but inevitably makes the card quite wordy and also adds a mechanic not present anywhere else, which by itself bumps it out of Common rarity.

It it was easy to find the perfect solution, we would have found it by now I think :)


I partially disagree. It's true that we are losing two of the most common uses, but these uses are the ones that make the card overpowered. I think it would be fair to force Control decks to get to level two on their own, and only then playing NH for ramp. It would still provide good value (you usually want to get to lv3 fast), but Control vs Control matches won't be decided by who draws the most NH in the first few rounds (which is quite how it works now). I think it is indeed a big nerf, but a nerf that actually makes the card work as it should: provide ramp for Control decks in a
sensible way.

Let's face it, most Control players try to mulligan into NH (unless they have a very good hand). It makes sense to mulligan into a card like Dark Portal, but I think it shouldn't be like that for New Horizons, not for such a generic card that can be included in so many decks (and I play it 4x in many decks, it's not like I hate it or something).

I think it would make it a balanced card, while right now it's an autoinclude in all the Control decks (and a good reason to splash Wisdom in Control decks of different colors, see Wis/Cor). The ability to ramp from lv1 to lv2 is the big deal here, that's why I'm suggesting WX. I'd like to hear some more people, since this would be such a simple change that it would be a shame to not at least discuss it.
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Re: Broader Card Changes - Suggestions

Postby freebie » Sat Feb 17, 2018 4:46 pm

From what I get Wisdom is just designed like to be a class that can fit in combination anywhere. A lot of those cards can be seen in different 2 or 3 aspects decks, a lot are staples maybe too much :D. So I understand why a ramp card like NH is like that. Sasha I think missing a ramp by one lvl is actually huge and I think a lot of people/players would agree if the card is changed like you suggest. I think maybe it won't even be used. To my experience and from what I've seen obviously (and as you said) you want to ramp at start/early game if possible (was gonna type not vs aggro as well, but that seems to not bother a lot of people sadly...). So you naturally look for that and you usually end up using at least 2 NH maybe 3. Often you might not even use the last one or 2 of them. If the card gets changed the way you suggest it becomes almost meaningless (at least 4 copies) to use it (?), but more peopel should comment. The bigger problem with ramp is (if it is a big problem) is you do get a lot of freedom if you manage to do so freely or you just drop a few Silencer - due to fast ramp - while your opponent had some shit on board or nothing at all :D. So naturally aggro "should" punish that. I don't fully agree that a faster ramp should be a definitive win as well it should give advantage, although you are right that it is a bit too much in Spellweaver.

While I am at it, I think in general the game really give benefits to a lot of aggro and specific control ones (yeah ramp + silencers with some variations with second aspect). Midrange is mostly build around Timeas some Diogens (not so much) and again wisdom, they aim to make/buff minions or have a multiple usable creatures/spells to handle early and late game monster decks. There many variations of those decks but they seem to do or aim at the same playstyle. Maybe a decey deck here and there that is also considered mid-rangey. Look the "new" Harbinger decks, they aim to kill you really fast or put you in situation where you are not interacting directly with the enemy. I don't judge it or trying to call op/broken etc. it's only natural for people to look the best/fastest/efficiant way to kill you. Though I feel we come to those results as well due to how the current state of the metagame is. I do honestly think (I think I've said it) that a few changes to some of the (same :P) aggro and the control decks will bring new flow to what is played (maybe it will be even fresh for a while :P). There is also a lot of cards that are not used, a lot of 1 hp creatures literally suffer to the way how many decks work with a lot of removal and just doesn't feel justified to even bother with them.

As I see people posting some suggestions I maybe should've made notes for some cards as well :D. Gonna go by heart/memory and feel(s). Maybe some will be too controversial :P.

Tactician. Gut the card :P, make it 3/1, soldiers in general time to change this broken shit devs, way to fucking resilient even when you fucking play a deck full of different removal spells... :). Maybe even consider the hero power itself. I am not sold on the shrine that lets you bump with might emblems every turn.

Tombs - people might get salty here, but make it spawn 2/1's isntead of 2/2's. I know it was changed once, but you still get the relentless pressure and even if you mange to contain it, it still is very strong vs a lot of aspects. Maybe I am reaching too much as I myself am a bit on the fence with this idea, but I think it would be good in the end. A lot of 1 hp creatures can trade if you chose, obviously some spells will get a massive value (haunt trading with 2/1 yammy :D), but you still have to have in mind that if you do not strictly remove Tombs it just keeps getting value/pressure.

The Chiken - this one is really subjective and I admit it is personal feeling more than anything. It just buggs me (to this day) that you can bump face with 2 of those for 8 damage costing 4 mana :(. So I guess it's more of a question if devs thought instead of getting damage some of the aspects gave hp? Would that actually be a buff or nerf if changed? I am just really not a fan of a switf creature/s that can deal more than 3 damage to face. I know its multipaspect and that should be drawback, but you know that card trigon...

Fia - just remembered about her. Make her at least 2/2... I know she was different, and I am far from wanting another strong creature that can fit into rage rush, but she is laughable right now. The legendary slogan on top of her beeing a rare is more of joke than anything else, seriously :( (side note about her scream, if able, tweak/change it pls, maybe I want to much :P).

Silencer - should be on top :D, just do something with this bullshit :D.

Guess thats what come to mind without the list of all cards in front of me.

As for the Fuzz suggestions, I don't think Javelineers needs buff or change. He have place it trials or drafts, obviously not much elsewhere because it is 1 speed. Then again if he was 2 speed, man he can make some nasty good trades with range and 3 attack.

Skyrider 3/2 makes me shiver in fear :P at the thought of swifted one, but overall no idea (2/3 maybe?). I can live with him beeing a bad card.

Edit:
I totally forgot about Priests thats a midrange deck for sure. On that matter I feel Hermi hero power can be really devastating with the artifact angels, I'd say too strong if stars alight. While I write about this I just can't help but mention Burkh :D, poor soul. I have some suggestions about him as well. Maybe in next post.
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Re: Broader Card Changes - Suggestions

Postby Zadorec » Sun Feb 18, 2018 11:40 am

Shambhala wrote:Maybe it could counter any card that does not target it specifically? That way it would still be useful, but if one comes prepared and has something to deal with it the match is still open, and most importantly it does not feel like utter impotence.

This might be a good idea. It wouldn't cancel detonate, dragonfire, test of time, gnome engineer, if silencer is the target of their effect (or gnome would still be cancelled, but with it enter field effect it would destroy Silencer too). Maybe when playing something into silencer, the enter field effect should happen, then silencer would destroy the creature.

SashaIr wrote:Let's face it, most Control players try to mulligan into NH (unless they have a very good hand). It makes sense to mulligan into a card like Dark Portal, but I think it shouldn't be like that for New Horizons, not for such a generic card that can be included in so many decks (and I play it 4x in many decks, it's not like I hate it or something).

Yes, and when playing control, and I don't get NH early, I usually lose. So it is kinda a neccesity for thoose decks, to play a NH early on, otherwise you are gonna have a bad time, but playing like an additional 1-2 is only icing on the cake, it get's you way too ahead.
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Re: Broader Card Changes - Suggestions

Postby SashaIr » Sun Feb 18, 2018 10:29 pm

Zadorec wrote:
SashaIr wrote:Let's face it, most Control players try to mulligan into NH (unless they have a very good hand). It makes sense to mulligan into a card like Dark Portal, but I think it shouldn't be like that for New Horizons, not for such a generic card that can be included in so many decks (and I play it 4x in many decks, it's not like I hate it or something).

Yes, and when playing control, and I don't get NH early, I usually lose. So it is kinda a neccesity for thoose decks, to play a NH early on, otherwise you are gonna have a bad time, but playing like an additional 1-2 is only icing on the cake, it get's you way too ahead.


You still get to play one, on turn 3 instead of turn 2. It doesn't seem devastating, you can still play Fireball/Power Discharge/Flashfreeze in the meanwhile. This just prevents you from playing two in three turns, or three total. It's not like you can't play NH anymore.
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Re: Broader Card Changes - Suggestions

Postby VanguardX » Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:47 am

Horizons is a good card. We don't need to nerf every good card. If we change Horizons dramatically, so many other control cards will need to change. The rest of the game is balanced around Horizons, and deck diversity in the meta is really good right now. I don't see why we'd need to change such a core card.
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Re: Broader Card Changes - Suggestions

Postby Lord_Xenon » Mon Feb 19, 2018 10:32 am

The arguments are more for a nerf/change of NH as it's down to 'Do I draw it in first turn or my opponent/lose because of not doing the first?'. It shouldn't be down to a gamechanger like that for literally no cost. Silencer get accursed while this ramp into it? Interesting. So everyone wants an easy thing, but don't want to deal with the things it enables/ramp into? That's so duplicitous...
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Re: Broader Card Changes - Suggestions

Postby Zadorec » Tue Feb 20, 2018 9:11 am

VanguardX wrote:Horizons is a good card. We don't need to nerf every good card. If we change Horizons dramatically, so many other control cards will need to change. The rest of the game is balanced around Horizons, and deck diversity in the meta is really good right now. I don't see why we'd need to change such a core card.

I belive it started with Silencer. With new horizons you can reach it quite quick, and win the game.

But rather than nerfing NH, changing Silencer so it is "counterable" would be better:
Shambhala wrote: Maybe it could counter any card that does not target it specifically?
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Re: Broader Card Changes - Suggestions

Postby Ravignir » Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:28 pm

But pegasi regiment actually counters silencer?
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Re: Broader Card Changes - Suggestions

Postby Zadorec » Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:13 pm

Ravignir wrote:But pegasi regiment actually counters silencer?

Great, now I'll run it in every single deck.
Anyways it does not, since it doesn't destroy Silencer, you just pay the 5 mana.
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