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Multi color shrine template

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Multi color shrine template

Postby VitamineC » Thu Feb 08, 2018 10:46 am

Since both Trigon and Pandemonium are hot topics, I think it would come in very handy to have a template of what a generic multi color shrine could look like to more easily assess the powerlevel of the two.
Ideally the template could be applied to any 2 colors and having a shrine for every combination in the game wouldn't break anything.

Two very important questions to ask are:
1. Should these multi color shrines be strictly better than primary shrines (especially in decks that run both colors) since you can only run 4 of them?
2. Should they be auto include only in decks that run both colors or should they also allow you to splash one of the two colors much more easily, if you only run the other (similar to how trigon works out now)?

I am not 100% sure on 1. but a sidegrade would probably beter for overall balance than an upgrade. As for 2. I strongly believe that these shrines shouldn't enable splashing at no extra cost (as I have made clear in my wall of text here).


That said I don't think shrines that are simply "+D OR +W" or variants of that would see any play. With DO and primary shrines drawing cards I'm pretty sure that the impact on consistency these shrines would have would be negligible and you could just run 2 more of each primary shrine instead.
So here is a first draft of my idea (wisdom/dominion shrine as an example):

"+D OR +W OR turn a W or D level into a dual level with the other and +1 card"

The last part is obviously the important one. You could use it to splash a color without losing a card but still with the same turn investment (you have to use 2 shrines to get both colors).
It would also allow you to fix level up mistakes. For example, if you want to go DDWW, but when you are at DDW you want to play Karthas but only have another dominion shrine in hand, you could go up to DDDW and later fix your levels to enable you to play Silencer without losing a card.
Lastly it would allow you to increase level scaling on cards without losing a card. For example in a Reanimator list where you normally go CCCW and then maybe add more corruption levels to get bigger Consumes, you could turn your wisdom level into a dual C/W level without having to spend a card.
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Re: Multi color shrine template

Postby VitamineC » Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:11 am

Doesn't anyone have any opinions or ideas on this? I'd appreciate even an "Your idea sucks and wouldn't be playable, because xyz."

I think having this down would make discussions about Trigon and Pandemonium easier.
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Re: Multi color shrine template

Postby Maraut » Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:57 am

1) Personally, I have come to hate Trigon for the reasons that have already been discussed. It dilutes aspect identity by allowing you to get all the goodies from all good aspects without any trouble. The only good thing I have found about it is that it makes Earthquake playable in Wisdom/Nature decks. I get the creeps when I hear people asking for an evil Trigon.

2) *NO* shrine should be strictly better than a basic shrine, in the sense that no shrine should be able to do what a basic shrine can do AND more. Basic shrines with their card draw are powerfull, and running too few of them should incur a severe card disadvantage.

3) However, any shrine that does not ramp you is unplayable imo. It is a dead draw in the early to mid game, and still a hefty price to pay in the late game. If anything, a possible test version could be something along the lines of "Turn one level into a dual level. Gain a mana crystal." That way, you ramp, but still suffer a downside by not drawing a card. But I'm still sceptical, because it could not be played on turn 1. I realize your version can also be used for normal ramp, but have you tried fitting all those options on a shrine text field in an understandable, intuitive way?
Last edited by Maraut on Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:03 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Multi color shrine template

Postby YSChaos » Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:00 am

Dual levels are a great design/concept imho.
However, mixing 3 aspects is just too much, hence the obvious OP trigon.

Creating dual aspect shrines has got to happen sooner or later, it was a corner stone in MTG, and should be in SW too.
They should be better than normal shrines, but carry a noticeable drawback (damage, discard, skip a phase, ...)

I need to think more about this topic, but for now I feel that not allowing these dual aspects to be your first shrine you play (for level) is a good restriction.
Playing 1 level cards of 2 different aspects should require 2 aspect levels.
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Re: Multi color shrine template

Postby VitamineC » Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:20 am

Maraut wrote:I realize your version can also be used for normal ramp, but have you tried fitting all those options on a shrine text field in an understandable, intuitive way?

I think something like this (only formatted correctly and cleanly) should be quite easy to read:
Image
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Re: Multi color shrine template

Postby Zephiria » Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:15 pm

As I said before, I'm all for finding a template. So far, I can't really contribute ideas.

So far I like dual-aspect shrines for all possible double colour combos but not 3+ best, while maintaining some drawback (eg. not drawing a card).
That approach leaves Trigon and Pandemonium completely out to look and change them seperately, which I also like.

However, keep them coming. :)
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Re: Multi color shrine template

Postby Lord_Xenon » Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:22 pm

What is the goal of dual shrines?

Hightier cards don't gain any benefit from this.
Kar/Silencer/Dragon etc. need to have 4 aspects, so why do we need dual shrines, if those cards don't benefit like T2 double requirement cards?
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Re: Multi color shrine template

Postby ivko » Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:26 pm

In my opinion one thing dual shrines should allow is mixing 2 colors in a way that you could play a 1-drop of one color, followed by a 2-drop of the other color. For example Spoiled Aristocrat followed by Tortured Orc.



As already mentioned it doesn't matter too much for level 3-4 plays, unless the cards have triple same aspect requirements (but this is currently only Bezarok & Pandemonium).

I'm not giving ideas here right now, because my mind is busy with other stuff, although I have some ideas stored somewhere remote in my memory :)
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Re: Multi color shrine template

Postby Carjan » Wed Feb 14, 2018 6:14 pm

Lord_Xenon wrote:What is the goal of dual shrines?

Hightier cards don't gain any benefit from this.
Kar/Silencer/Dragon etc. need to have 4 aspects, so why do we need dual shrines, if those cards don't benefit like T2 double requirement cards?
I was thinking the same. A suggestion for the template, is the following:

For the aspect facet of the shrine: pick one aspect of the two, A or B - no dual levels.

For the none-aspect effect -- and do not exclude that this could be a skill as these are a proven concept:
1. Start from a weak or a generic basic effect. This could be as simple as +1 card, as suggested by VitamineC.
2. Add an effect for 2 levels in aspect A
3. Add an effect for 2 levels in aspect B

Please don't focus on any issues just yet -- bar some glaring holes -- but on the idea. The idea is that it would be barely useful, if at all, in 2 level decks, pretty useful in 3 level decks or asymmetrically mixed 4 level decks (the "Word of ..." cards could fill in the void there) and strongest in 4 level decks that mix the colors equally. It feels fitting to me that the dual shrine would award you if you invested significantly and equally in both aspects.

Trigon (and Pandemonium) could work the same way then, potentially supporting 3 aspect decks, but it would have an effect for each unique Good level (like a "good chicken") or for each unique Evil level (Pandemoium).
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Re: Multi color shrine template

Postby Lord_Xenon » Thu Feb 15, 2018 9:29 am

Ivko: Personally I don't see the point in your argument. You just describe how trigon work and how it render Hightier decks less powerful. Let's face it: Trigon is a big ramp. Noone can deny that. 1 Trigon give you basically 1 turn advancement(D/R) compared to the standard level up. In double aspect requirement, the benefit is already at 2 turns(DDRR vs. D/R D/R). In an interchanged double aspect in three different good/evil one, we would already be at 3 turns! So everytime you play such a card, you are 1 turn ahead of your opponent with just basic shrines! This system isn't balanced! T4 cards need 4 turns just for being in the level requirements.

The only way I could see a fix to this dilemma is, that instead of counting for both aspects, you need to choose at the start of your turn which aspect it should mimic. So the trigon isn't O/N = O playable and N playable, no it isn't an accepted level itself. So you click on it, then choose O or N and then at the end of the turn it turns back into O/N. You would have your 'interchangeable' aspects but without the sort of ramp it provides in the current broken system.
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