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Pandemonium of Overnerfness

The game's community balance team discusses card changes here.

Re: Pandemonium of Overnerfness

Postby VanguardX » Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:50 am

Maraut wrote:
Rinriet wrote:That can be fixed if Pandemonium first gives you 2 levels, then allows you to sac ANY of the current levels. So it could work as standard level up in the case you need it (for example, turn 1).

Is that change is made, you also could effectively use it to go up 1 level in any Evil aspect.

If that change is made (together with the CXX cost), i think Pan would see a lot more play.

That sounds like a really good idea. It's not much of a buff, removes one annoying inconvenient of the card, all without making Pandemonium strictly better than an ordinary shrine and thus an auto-include in evil decks.


This fixes the turn 1 issue, and I'd support it if it doesn't affect the flavor too much. It does dramatically change the card, though, by allowing it to be a single level of any color - now you could play it in snakes, for instance, without messing up the color curve.

If we're going to make it better than a normal shrine, I'd prefer giving it +1 mana potential (maybe without the draw?) over allowing it to go up a single level in any one aspect.
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Re: Pandemonium of Overnerfness

Postby Jeronimo » Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:23 am

Rinriet's idea is fine-> Get dual evil ramp, then sacrifice a level.
For turn 1 would work as [get 1 level of any evil aspect] and for later turns would still allow the [2 evil aspects swap].
In the end... What else is possible without making it look boring or overpowered?

Respect its effect-> I agree with the CXX, but make it more versatile. :)
For a cost 5 spell, I'd like to be able to cast it on a creature or hero, not just hero.
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Re: Pandemonium of Overnerfness

Postby ivko » Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:45 pm

I'm not really sure how to put this on the card graphically, but I really like the sacrifice to be made after gaining the levels. It still won't be better than a normal shrine, as it doesn't provide mana. Does anyone see anything particularly wrong with this?

If not, I would go for CXX for the level, and make is gain 2 levels before requiring you to sacrifice one.

P.S: I also pretty much like the idea of making it hit creatures too, but I fear it might get too obnoxious.
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Re: Pandemonium of Overnerfness

Postby Jeronimo » Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:03 pm

Image
I think is clear enough (needs better resizing, I did a mess there with MS Paint).

The effect for Pandemonium of Darkness could be related to some sort of mana gain in compensation for not being a typical normal shrine that gives +1 mana crystal/+1 card. IMO the current "life drain" doesn't fit the shrine flavor...

So I sketched this sort of twisted and selfish mana ramp-> Corruption 1, Mana 1, Action Spell.
Effect: Sacrifice a creature you control and gain mana this turn equal to each of your levels in aspects of Evil.

It will allow 1 turn big plays like combos or hard-paying Deep Sea Horror/Undead Hydra.

The name of the card makes reference to the Fortress of Demons in the Abyss, right?
It makes sense to expect combos with Pandemonium + Dark Portal (which will be nerfed soon).

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This petition is for Trigon: Can it have the +1 SP back, but costing 3 mana instead?
Because just +1 ATT/+1 HP doesn't want me to keep it, in comparison to super-awesome normal shrines.

Trigon in essence should be a TRI-TRI-triple bonus for a creature... it was a pity to cut the speed boost.
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Re: Pandemonium of Overnerfness

Postby VanguardX » Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:29 am

Jeronimo wrote:This petition is for Trigon: Can it have the +1 SP back, but costing 3 mana instead?
Because just +1 ATT/+1 HP doesn't want me to keep it, in comparison to super-awesome normal shrines.

Trigon in essence should be a TRI-TRI-triple bonus for a creature... it was a pity to cut the speed boost.


Please no. +1/+1/+1 as a permanent effect in spellweaver is VERY good - too good even at 3 mana.
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Re: Pandemonium of Overnerfness

Postby Zadorec » Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:54 am

ivko wrote:I'm not really sure how to put this on the card graphically, but I really like the sacrifice to be made after gaining the levels. It still won't be better than a normal shrine, as it doesn't provide mana. Does anyone see anything particularly wrong with this?

With the current changes, it might not be strictly worse than a basic shrine, since you will be able to start with it too. But still it will be only a basic shrine with a spell part. That everyone uses for the spell part. Or maybe in some clunky deck to exploit it with Grand Institute/Angelblessed Knight.

I think with mana sac with level cap (only if you don't have more than 2 levels) would have been just fine, we could have tried it (that's the point of testing). I think it would still be weaker than Trigon.
I don't know, what to do with this "It can't be written on the card" reasoning, I thought opposed to Heartstone where everything has to be a game mechanic, in Spellweaver there are limitless options, the cards can do whatever you write on them.

But oh well, I guess it's alright. Not every card has to be good.
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Re: Pandemonium of Overnerfness

Postby ivko » Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:21 pm

Not sure exactly what you mean by "can't be written on the card reasoning".

Yes, we can write anything on the cards, but still it has to be understandable, not counter-intuitive or perplexing, and most importantly it must fit in the card template. We can't fit any shrine mechanic we think of into Pandemonium's card face just because the part of the card allocated to displaying the shrine mechanic is quite limited.

Also I understand that you guys may have no issues of drastically redesigning Pandemonium, but in the eyes of the other players redesigning a card just as it was introduced into the game won't feel right. Especially if the card is mostly fine, as is the case with Pandemonium.
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Re: Pandemonium of Overnerfness

Postby freebie » Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:37 pm

Changes seem good, when people test it or after that we will see. I am curious to see how the CXX will turn up for the other aspects, in my mind I thought you would limit it only for the evil ones. I am not a fan of the spell part to have effect on creatures though.
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Re: Pandemonium of Overnerfness

Postby Zadorec » Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:45 pm

ivko wrote:Not sure exactly what you mean by "can't be written on the card reasoning".

I meant, that it seems it is set in stone how a shrine card looks like, additional restrictions or anything can't be added, like I wanted. Sticking to the template is good, but maybe occasionally we could have some cards, that are a little different, giving more design space.

But anyway, it is an old story now, hopefully after the chages Pandemonium will be more playable.
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Re: Pandemonium of Overnerfness

Postby Maraut » Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:23 pm

I have so far tested two decks more or less centered around Pandemonium. The first was a face damage deck with fireball, deathcurse, succubus and pandemonium, which also used passageways to conjure Ram'Gakh and flame serpent. The deck was an utter failure.

I also made a control deck based on Zephyria's rant some weeks ago about Elinor being able to bring back Pandemonium. But the resulting deck seemed rather clunky compared to classic word of grace OTH, and it wasn't my kind of deck either, so I quickly gave up on it.

It seems to me that Pandemonium as it is now is not a card you can build decks around, but simply gives you an option for driving in the last points of damage after your deck has run out of steam. Which is ok, I guess. Not impressive, but ok.
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