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Pandemonium of Overnerfness

The game's community balance team discusses card changes here.

Re: Pandemonium of Overnerfness

Postby Zadorec » Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:46 pm

I can't really think of anything else as well, changing the spell part will not make the shrine any more useful.

This would be my version of Pandemonium (the spell part can change):
Image

As I wrote before, I think it is kinda balanced, we could test it out how much it would strengthen Consume, WoF, etc. It could help much, but maybe the loss of the mana crystal early is quite a big setback as well.
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Re: Pandemonium of Overnerfness

Postby YSChaos » Thu Feb 08, 2018 6:47 am

To keep it simple and clear; Pandemonium should be similar to Trigon, the dual aspect mana is really original & great design and why not have it on another card as well.
However, fix Trigon first!
The requirement to play Trigon should be to have 1 mana level already. So you can't play Trigon as first level, which is a serious nerf, but it retains all it's mechanics and design. Same same for Pandemonium.
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Re: Pandemonium of Overnerfness

Postby Lord_Xenon » Thu Feb 08, 2018 10:00 am

Ravignir wrote:Maybe make effect: XXX, 5 mana
"Deal 2 damage for each of your rage level, steal 1 life for each of your corruption level and put a weakness emblem for each of your dominion level"?


The weakness emblem sounds like WoP...
The damage part is a way stronger fireball or fire...
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Re: Pandemonium of Overnerfness

Postby Burdis » Thu Feb 08, 2018 5:25 pm

Some things that are NOT going to work:
Making the spell generic level only. This gives life drain to Rage and Dominion, and is not acceptable as this is a Corruption mechanic.
Making the sac. a crystal, gain 2 levels mechanic. Although this can be conveyed in icon format, I think it is both too risky in terms of balance, and too ambiguous without proper text explanation.
Turning one type of level into another - we can't convey the concept graphically in a clear way.
Any form of ramping on a Shrine is simply too much.
I believe we should NOT reduce the mana cost, the card should be expensive because the effect is on a shrine and too easily accessible. Also note that as a parallel, if we make a second Rage spell that deals 3in addition to Fireball, we CAN'T cost both at 2 mana.
I strongly believe that simply choosing one level out of three will not be very playable, and is not at all exciting.

I agree with pretty much everything here

My opinion of the card.

While i agree that the evil aspects need a card more similar to trigon i dont think changing pandemonium to this card is a good idea at all.A new card just needs to be made to fill that requirement. Pandemonium has its own flavor and fills a different role.

Pandemonium is definitely my favourite card out of all released for mobile. not because its strong or anything but because its the most interesting card out of all of them to try build a deck around. sure it doesn't fit in already established decks but it has made me do things that i have never done since playing this game such as using grand institute. consuming for 8-9 making the having the biggest valrorsworn incarnates ive ever had, turning angel blessed knight levels into permanent ramp.. to me pandemonium is a breathe of fresh air to the game and i can see it being used in more interesting ways as more cards involving levels are introduced.
Not every card has to be playable in tier 1 decks, Some cards need to just plain and simply interesting because not every player in the game is a competetive player aiming for no.1.
Sure it's easy for a lot of us here who have played silly amounts of the game to straight away know we do or dont want to play with it or if its viable. But I bet if new players see this card, It will look interesting to them and they will try and do something with it, having fun with the game. Which judging from our playerbase is something this game needs.

HOWEVER this is all just with the part of the card that involves the saccing level for ramp. The ability on the other hand feels... wrong? it almost feels like a restriction as opposed to some versatility. It almost says "hey, if you choose to ramp in dominion or in rage then you lose out!"
So in my opinion Ravignir is on the right track for what to do with the ability. not exactly the effects he chose but in terms of-
Do something Corruption flavoured for every corruption level you have
Do something Rage flavoured for every rage level you have
Do something dominion flavoured for every dominion level you have
I think it Suits the flavour of the card perfectly (the more evil there is the more kind of chaos hits the board with these different effects).
It loses that restrictive feel to it
and i think is overall more interesting.

but like i said before I agree with everyone that evil needs a better shrine in terms of competetiveness I just don't agree that it should be pandemonium.
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Re: Pandemonium of Overnerfness

Postby VanguardX » Fri Feb 09, 2018 3:07 am

ivko wrote:Some things that are NOT going to work:
  • Making the spell generic level only. This gives life drain to Rage and Dominion, and is not acceptable as this is a Corruption mechanic.
  • Making the sac. a crystal, gain 2 levels mechanic. Although this can be conveyed in icon format, I think it is both too risky in terms of balance, and too ambiguous without proper text explanation.
  • Turning one type of level into another - we can't convey the concept graphically in a clear way.
  • Any form of ramping on a Shrine is simply too much.
  • I believe we should NOT reduce the mana cost, the card should be expensive because the effect is on a shrine and too easily accessible. Also note that as a parallel, if we make a second Rage spell that deals 3in addition to Fireball, we CAN'T cost both at 2 mana.
  • I strongly believe that simply choosing one level out of three will not be very playable, and is not at all exciting.

Let us try to contain things a little, and only post suggestions for specific simple card balance tweaks. Nothing revolutionary is being sought here. Well, If you think you have an ingenious and simple idea for a new mechanic of the spell part, okay, feel free to suggest it :)

So far I have not seen something in the thread that I can put as a balance suggestion in the first post.

Anyone thinking that my suggestion for a balance change (only relaxing the level req to CXX) is not sufficient?


If we can't touch those things (ramp, sac a crystal) then I'm assuming you won't go for the idea to make it enter your hand from your deck in the event of a missed DO.

It will see more play if you relax the level requirement to CXX (or CX or just C, since at it's current cost if you're at single C that's not a great use of mana). It won't be nearly as good as trigon, but it's playable.
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Re: Pandemonium of Overnerfness

Postby Zadorec » Fri Feb 09, 2018 10:17 am

Burdis wrote:Pandemonium is definitely my favourite card out of all released for mobile. not because its strong or anything but because its the most interesting card out of all of them to try build a deck around. sure it doesn't fit in already established decks but it has made me do things that i have never done since playing this game such as using grand institute. consuming for 8-9 making the having the biggest valrorsworn incarnates ive ever had, turning angel blessed knight levels into permanent ramp.. to me pandemonium is a breathe of fresh air to the game and i can see it being used in more interesting ways as more cards involving levels are introduced.

So it is just released, and only playable in decks that exploit it? Great.

Burdis wrote:But I bet if new players see this card, It will look interesting to them and they will try and do something with it, having fun with the game. Which judging from our playerbase is something this game needs.

I bet new players will be so excited when they find out, that the epic rarity card they just crafted for 150 shrines is essentially useless, apart from like 2 odd decks, that exploit it (which they will never play, because they are quite complex, and not even that good).
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Re: Pandemonium of Overnerfness

Postby VitamineC » Fri Feb 09, 2018 12:11 pm

The shrine part is really bad compared to Trigon, but as I've explained in length in the broad issues thread I think that's because Trigon is too good and really shouldn't set the gold standard for special shrines. Pandemonium could have its niche uses and it definitely will get more useful with more 2 or 3 mana cards that require two levels in the same evil aspect like Tombs or in the 3 level slot Phoenix.
The mana sac suggestion is interesting, but it would probably have to be tested first. I don't think explaining the effect in picture form would be difficult or result in a lot of misunderstandings. Just use the same icon that's on shrines when you gain a mana crystal and have it say -1 instead of +1, or make it 1*crossed out mana crystal*. Both of these should be really easy to understand. As for specific mechanics just decide on whether you need to sac a full mana crystal or not and stay consistent when creating future cards with a similar effect. If you need to have a full mana crystal, just add a red warning text saying "1 full mana crystal required" or something similar should you have no mana left. If you don't require a full mana crystal it should always work, but empty mana crystals would be prioritized when you play the shrine.
That said I'm not sure Pandemonium is the right card for this kind of effect.

Regarding the spell part I think changing the level requirement to just C should be fine. I don't think a burn card that's reasonably only going to hit for 3 or 4 damage needs to be restricted to only corrution decks when it costs 5 mana, even when you can tutor it with DO. If it's still too bad then, it could still be buffed to 4 mana later.


A little bit off topic:
I think it's great that this discussion shows how much unexplored design space Spellweaver's resource system has. From more spell shrines or even creature shrines over shrines that sac a mana for 2 levels or a level for two mana or even more extreme variants of that to shrines that destroy levels or can turn one level into another there are A LOT of options. And I don't think conveying those in picture form should be too difficult. If you turn one level into another, just do "level -> new level" for example for the idea of turning a level into a dual level "generic level icon -> half corruption half generic level icon".
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Re: Pandemonium of Overnerfness

Postby VanguardX » Sat Feb 10, 2018 4:19 am

What if we add the option for +1 card, +1 mana (like a typical shrine)? Then Pandemonium:

a) Isn't another non-draw shrine for black decks, which almost always want to run at least Sanctum
b) Can be used on turn 1 if it's the only shrine in hand (right now, not being able to play Pandemonium turn 1 is a big disadvantage)
c) Isn't a dead card in the event you switch double levels. For instance, in Vitamin's example, you go double black for tombs, then use pandemonium to get to RRC to play Phoenix. It's a cool setup - except now all your tombs are dead cards in hand, and that's tough if you also have Pandemonium as a dead card (unless you're going to play it for the spell).
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Re: Pandemonium of Overnerfness

Postby Rinriet » Sat Feb 10, 2018 4:33 am

VanguardX wrote:b) Can be used on turn 1 if it's the only shrine in hand (right now, not being able to play Pandemonium turn 1 is a big disadvantage)


That can be fixed if Pandemonium first gives you 2 levels, then allows you to sac ANY of the current levels. So it could work as standard level up in the case you need it (for example, turn 1).

Is that change is made, you also could effectively use it to go up 1 level in any Evil aspect.

If that change is made (together with the CXX cost), i think Pan would see a lot more play.
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Re: Pandemonium of Overnerfness

Postby Maraut » Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:39 am

Rinriet wrote:That can be fixed if Pandemonium first gives you 2 levels, then allows you to sac ANY of the current levels. So it could work as standard level up in the case you need it (for example, turn 1).

Is that change is made, you also could effectively use it to go up 1 level in any Evil aspect.

If that change is made (together with the CXX cost), i think Pan would see a lot more play.

That sounds like a really good idea. It's not much of a buff, removes one annoying inconvenient of the card, all without making Pandemonium strictly better than an ordinary shrine and thus an auto-include in evil decks.
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