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Harbinger of Souls, Combo Spawner

The game's community balance team discusses card changes here.

Re: Harbinger of Souls, Combo Spawner

Postby VitamineC » Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:36 pm

The main reason we are even discussing a change to Portal is the harbinger combo. Since 2 doesn't affect it at all I agree that we should just test 1 and 3.

In what way would 3 be inconsistent with Reverence?
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Re: Harbinger of Souls, Combo Spawner

Postby Rinriet » Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:08 pm

Good. If we take out way 2 because it leaves untouched the combo (plus nerfs normal Demons with no 0 mana Nightbringers), we have the other 2 options.

In general, 1 and 3 have the same effect. Because a Legendary Portal effectively sets the maximum reduction to 1 mana less than their base cost.

1 is a better version of 3 (in most scenarios): it allows to use another portal to set energy to zero (like a worse Herald) + it allows to remove Haunts for 2 mana (which is fair). Both effects aren't a big buff if you consider that removing double portal combos is a nerf. I'd test this one.

3 is a plain nerf to demons, which I think is unnecessary. I'd only consider this option if making portal legendary ends up making it too powerful.
Last edited by Rinriet on Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Harbinger of Souls, Combo Spawner

Postby ivko » Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:16 pm

What I mean by inconsistent is that it is similar but subtly different, which can cause confusion because people can assume the effects are the same. This should generally be avoided, but I think it is acceptable due to both cards being high rarity.

I honestly prefer the 3 option - non Legendary but only reducing cost by one. I am not a big fan of reducing the inherent risk factor associated with portal. On the contrary, I believe that it should reward you for taking measured risks and this actually requires more skill to play correctly. What do you guys think?

In any case I believe we should test both versions.
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Re: Harbinger of Souls, Combo Spawner

Postby VanguardX » Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:46 am

I agree with ivko - test both versions, but #3 is my preference. I'm confident legendary portal makes aggro demons too good.
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Re: Harbinger of Souls, Combo Spawner

Postby Rinriet » Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:58 am

ivko wrote:I am still a bit concerned about its usage in aggro demons outside of the combo. The ones of you who have played the deck, how easy it is to alleviate the life loss from Portal with Harbinger (without aiming for a combo win)?


After testing a little more: I think the main problem is the huge value it gets for 2 mana: 6HP, 3 bodies. It's so good that playing a harbinger most of the time is the correct play.

About life gain: with enoch, harbingers are making you from losing 1-2hp to winning 1-2 (in most scenarios). It's fine unless you play it in multiples.
Last edited by Rinriet on Tue Feb 13, 2018 3:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Harbinger of Souls, Combo Spawner

Postby ivko » Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:15 pm

All right, I will try my best to set up cards for testing this Thursday after a game update, so we can hopefully test this out and then maybe make the changes next week.

Apologies in advance if I can't make it, tomorrow we are planning to submit a new mobile app to Apple with quite a lot of changes.
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Re: Harbinger of Souls, Combo Spawner

Postby freebie » Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:05 pm

As far as my knowledge goes, before Harbinger demons were not very common (I've seen them been used in some masters decks), and from what people say they were not top tier. So even if it is kinda obvious, maybe Harbinger indeed is the culprit here after all and though it's new card and people don't want it to be changed it is worth thinking about it.

In the end you can use Harbinger into really fast rush/smorc (the Rinriet deck with the swtif hero, I haven't seen it mentioned here), to make a wide and hard/almost impossible to clear board rather fast and the combo as well (that has variations as well) if there is any other decks that poped out forgive me not mentioning them. So which one of those is fine in the developers eyes? Are they all fine because it is diverse? For me personally the card does too much and that is problem.

I am curious to see how the suggested change to portal will affect the overall outcome though.
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Re: Harbinger of Souls, Combo Spawner

Postby Rinriet » Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:04 pm

I can post the deck in forums when I had access to SW client (on Saturday). But other demons decks are pretty similar in strenght and rush potential.

Nerf to portal will hit the OTK potential though (yes atm the deck if gets 2 portals can hit 20+dmg to face in turn 6).
But definetely Harbinger is OP there, because the 2 Souls get rid of annoying blockers while Harbinger per se makes stupid favourable trades because 4HP, and avoids removal like arrow barrage.
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Re: Harbinger of Souls, Combo Spawner

Postby Rinriet » Thu Feb 22, 2018 12:22 pm

Sorry for double posting (8 days omg). I am reporting my new opinions on this topic.

First, I tried aggro Demons in two kinds. The traditional Aezerhis RCC one and my new Neeva NC.

Image

Image

My thoughts at the moment are:

-Both changes to portal affect a very small percentage of matches. Double portal isn't an every match thing, so most of the time Demons are the same.

-In the cases I had the 2nd portal in hand, if it was the III version, it was an insta DO target most of the time, unless I had a lot of room for losing HP vs a Control matchup (where is kinda ok). So the only change it makes in most scenarios is to fuck 1 card opportunity.

-In the cases I had the 2nd portal in hand, if it was the II version (legendary), I tried to reserve it for an emergency. But I often had an Herald too, which is strictly a better play 100% of the times. The main change here are probabilities, that go from 4 to 7 cards able to reset. But, here is the problem, Demons at the moment don't need resetting like before.

-In both Portal reworks the stupid double portal combos are gone (2 mana Aezerhis into 4x free Vultures for lethal & 4 1 mana Fiends into Neeva HP for easy 20 dmg OTK). Which is fair and healthy.

-Harbinger is good. Always. If playing with Enoch, you are actually healing while playing him. Plus you are getting a fucking huge ball of stats that gets a lot of +1/+1 from Enoch heropowers too.
-The 4 HP from Harbinger at 2 mana 2 levels makes for excellent trades vs any kind of deck.
-The 2+ souls never hit the Slave condition because you are playing demons, which means that you play 0 cost Nights.
-Then, the souls are a great creature because they can trade extremely well because of 3sp, getting huge board advantage or passing lethal too easy.
-And the thing is that you hit Harbingers every match. Which adds more reliability to his OPness.

-As a resume, most of the decks aren't able to deal with tokens + huge HP + healing + combat tricks. Actual Enoch demons can even win vs Rage Rush (usually an insta-lose matchup).

-So as a conclusion, I think Harbinger has to be nerfed. At least he needs weakness that the rival could abuse.

End of report.

Personal opinion of balance:
-> Legendary Portal + remove Demon tag from Harbinger.
·You let aggro demons be ok, without insane healing. Not reliable Harbinger at 3 mana is 100% playable.
·Combo OTHs are gone.
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Re: Harbinger of Souls, Combo Spawner

Postby ivko » Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:12 pm

Huge thanks Rinriet, this is exactly the kind if feedback we need here!

I also tend to think that Harbinger is too powerful as a Demon, so we should definitely be more powerful in the future with that. I agree with your conclusions, but let's see whether anyone else has something to say.

P.S: I apologize for "disappearing" from the forums for so long, I just had a really rough week...
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