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Harbinger of Souls, Combo Spawner

The game's community balance team discusses card changes here.

Re: Harbinger of Souls, Combo Spawner

Postby Maraut » Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:03 pm

I agree with most of what Rinriet has said. In my test games, I never feld like it mattered what kind of portal I played, which makes me think that we were wrong to assume that changing portal would balance harbinger. Then again, we probably did because our main concern back then was the OTH deck.

I disagree with his conclusion, however. If harbinger does too much, i.e. enters the field too early, provides too many bodies, and with 4 HP is safe from most removal, then *that* is what needs a tweak, not his creature type.
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Re: Harbinger of Souls, Combo Spawner

Postby ivko » Fri Feb 23, 2018 2:23 pm

Maraut, it is just that Portal places certain restrictions on the Demons we have in the game. So it is expected that this could force us to change other cards - simply because certain pairs of cards become OP only in combination. Portal and Harbinger just have too much synergy:

a) the Portal deck can spawn too many creature quickly, negating the "Slave" drawback of Enchained Soul
b) Harbinger lets you work around Portal's drawback by letting you gaining back a lot of life
c) Enoch which is already often played in the Demon deck ALSO has synergy with Harbinger, letting you reclaim even MORE life
d) Harbinger for 2 mana become a huge deal because of the extra ATK/HP it spawns in the form of Souls

The problem I see with balancing Harbinger by tweaking stats for example, it that it would still likely be too powerful in Demons for the reasons stated above, but will become much less playable anywhere else - for example in certain Enoch-based decks.

I still think that we need to make a change to Portal, and I'm leaning towards making it Legendary, because it is simpler and doesn't lead to a couple of different cost-reduction mechanics (which could lead to confusion at times).
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Re: Harbinger of Souls, Combo Spawner

Postby YSChaos » Sun Feb 25, 2018 5:30 am

ivko wrote:I still think that we need to make a change to Portal, and I'm leaning towards making it Legendary, because it is simpler and doesn't lead to a couple of different cost-reduction mechanics (which could lead to confusion at times).

I agree with this, plus removing Demon tag from harbinger is also a good choice. Demons should not receive any easy life-gain anymore.
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Re: Harbinger of Souls, Combo Spawner

Postby Zadorec » Sun Feb 25, 2018 11:48 am

YSChaos wrote:
ivko wrote:I still think that we need to make a change to Portal, and I'm leaning towards making it Legendary, because it is simpler and doesn't lead to a couple of different cost-reduction mechanics (which could lead to confusion at times).

I agree with this, plus removing Demon tag from harbinger is also a good choice. Demons should not receive any easy life-gain anymore.

I think removing the demon tag would be a good idea too. The card is pretty strong, but it's not op, unless you play 4 of them 4 consecutive turn, because you can tutor them. The card works especially well with portal, since portal makes you lose life, and you get a lot of value out of Harbinger, allowing you to gain a lot of life, this way since portal tutored it, portal is able to negate it's own drawback, what it shouldn't be able to do.
Even if it's not a demon, I think it would be worth to play in demons, because of the synergy with portal and Enoch, but you couldn't just tutor it up all the time.
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Re: Harbinger of Souls, Combo Spawner

Postby Rinriet » Sun Feb 25, 2018 12:08 pm

Zadorec wrote:I think removing the demon tag would be a good idea too. The card is pretty strong, but it's not op, unless you play 4 of them 4 consecutive turn, because you can tutor them. The card works especially well with portal, since portal makes you lose life, and you get a lot of value out of Harbinger, allowing you to gain a lot of life, this way since portal tutored it, portal is able to negate it's own drawback, what it shouldn't be able to do.
Even if it's not a demon, I think it would be worth to play in demons, because of the synergy with portal and Enoch, but you couldn't just tutor it up all the time.


Removing demon tag will also make it cost 3 instead of 2 mana, which is completely fine.
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Re: Harbinger of Souls, Combo Spawner

Postby Zadorec » Sun Feb 25, 2018 12:40 pm

Rinriet wrote:
Zadorec wrote:I think removing the demon tag would be a good idea too. The card is pretty strong, but it's not op, unless you play 4 of them 4 consecutive turn, because you can tutor them. The card works especially well with portal, since portal makes you lose life, and you get a lot of value out of Harbinger, allowing you to gain a lot of life, this way since portal tutored it, portal is able to negate it's own drawback, what it shouldn't be able to do.
Even if it's not a demon, I think it would be worth to play in demons, because of the synergy with portal and Enoch, but you couldn't just tutor it up all the time.


Removing demon tag will also make it cost 3 instead of 2 mana, which is completely fine.

Yeah, I don't even know how portal works, but does it let you search for the reduced cost? So at 2 energy for the Harbinger?
And yes, with portal Harbinger costs only 2 mana, and I think it is quite strong for a 3 mana creature as well, at 2 mana it is definately OP.
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Re: Harbinger of Souls, Combo Spawner

Postby freebie » Sun Feb 25, 2018 3:40 pm

If Harbinger is turned into non-Demon anymore, does the change to portal still necessary? Maybe you can still smorc a bit, but there won't be a cheap 2/4 with bunch of 1/1 bodies and heal. Kinda sad it have to be that way, Harbigner would've been nice to stay as a demon. Sadly not a lot of other suggestions how it can be done differently. Would Harbinger be bad if it costed one more mana?

Yo, Rinri I looked your decks on the previous page. I had Enoch with similiar list, because a few weeks ago was really into finally try some decay decks/cards. I didn't use Vermin, Herald, Flesh and Firablast (I also still don't have one portal), as it was quite unrefined and just wanted to test how it feels and work. I did change it very close to yours and played some vs ai games, was curious about some of those cards you included. I myself didn't include Fireblast though, lately I ignore it, not sold on it too much because it requires specific board state, and sotime just sits there. I supect the Flesh is just to make you board too hard to be wiped by some AoE and Vermin to make good trades (maybe with Fireblast it can shine even more). I am still interested in different variants of Aezerhis decks though :). So far I had an indea of mine that turned out to be pretty close to Snakes (minus 10-11 cards) and actually had to tweak it to have more chance vs super agressive decks. Haven't tested the Maraut version (although his deck is not like focused on decay only), maybe the Molten turns me away :D (rng). I did try the Dobrycy with the swift hero from the previous masters, its interesting. Though I still feel the ultimate Aezerhis deck is yet to be created :D (maybe I am wrong).

I did copy your green agro demon version though (minus a portal and flesh). It's an interesting all in deck for sure :D. Cruious how it will work vs humans in my hands. I remember watching you play a tourney about a month ago, it did look quite strong.
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Re: Harbinger of Souls, Combo Spawner

Postby Rinriet » Sun Feb 25, 2018 9:18 pm

Zadorec wrote:Yeah, I don't even know how portal works, but does it let you search for the reduced cost? So at 2 energy for the Harbinger?

Portal searches based on level, not mana cost. So at 2 energy you can get Harbingers, Thoughts and Scourges.

freebie wrote:If Harbinger is turned into non-Demon anymore, does the change to portal still necessary? Maybe you can still smorc a bit, but there won't be a cheap 2/4 with bunch of 1/1 bodies and heal. Kinda sad it have to be that way, Harbigner would've been nice to stay as a demon. Sadly not a lot of other suggestions how it can be done differently. Would Harbinger be bad if it costed one more mana?


Yes. Mostly because multiple portals lead to unhealthy combos. Also Legendary Portal isn't strictly a buff or nerf, is a tweak.

freebie wrote:Yo, Rinri I looked your decks on the previous page. I had Enoch with similiar list, because a few weeks ago was really into finally try some decay decks/cards. I didn't use Vermin, Herald, Flesh and Firablast (I also still don't have one portal), as it was quite unrefined and just wanted to test how it feels and work. I did change it very close to yours and played some vs ai games, was curious about some of those cards you included. I myself didn't include Fireblast though, lately I ignore it, not sold on it too much because it requires specific board state, and sotime just sits there.

I did copy your green agro demon version though (minus a portal and flesh). It's an interesting all in deck for sure :D. Cruious how it will work vs humans in my hands. I remember watching you play a tourney about a month ago, it did look quite strong.


Fireblast is for Demon mirrors and helps in other matchups too. Herald is a must in Demons (without Harbinger silly healing OPness); without it you can't win a lot of matchs. Sculptor & Vermin are there because it's an aggro focused variant; you can change them for Tombs + little more control.

DemonNe'eva definetely needs 4 portals. Flesh are very strong there too (synergy with Nights & Brothers). The decks works pretty well vs Humans (I have 80+% win rate with it in rank & tourneys) but it's hard to play it.
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Re: Harbinger of Souls, Combo Spawner

Postby freebie » Wed Feb 28, 2018 6:54 pm

I feel even if Harbinger is changed to non-Demon it will still be a formidable card (and maybe that is fine). In your nature deck you can still create a board that is very big (without portal). Obviously it is way weaker because you won't be able to play it for 1/2 mana less and specifically draw it, but Summoner can act as a replacement and you can still get huge board. I know this is a different kind of outcome and set up, but Harbinger in itself is just too strong as I said a few posts ago.

I wish the card remained a demon (as it brought life to this type of decks), but nerfed/changed elsewhere. The biggest problem is it can spawn a lot of creatures (healing) and that you can speicifcally draw and made it cheaper. The changes that were made thus far tried to made the card less effective by not allowing to play it really fast/cheap and then to make it non-Demon or otherwise not beeing able to draw it whenever you want with portal. None of those examples addressed/s the card itself (stats/ability). What if Harbinger couldn't attack on top of beeing 1 mana more expensive? That way you won't use it for smorc. Come on, people with more experience and understanding of the game and it's mechanics must have a better suggestions and ideas.

I am sure Fireblast is useful, not doubt about it, especially if you put it in there. I don't see it obviously because, I haven't played the deck vs humans. It just feels weird that is is the only AoE and you have only 3 copies of it and I do wonder in that case how often you manage to rely on it. Although I am aware and you will probably confirmed that in such a deck where you put a lot emphsis on the creatures that is not that important.
As for Herald I am almost on the fence if you actually need them with the current state of Harbinger and Enoch (maybe even with Ne'eva :P), as you aim for really fast kill and if game goes south you ain't gonna be saved/make a cUmback with a 2/1 to reset energy (but thats my take).

Btw I believe/have the feeling your Nature Demons were built even before the new cards, am I right :P?
I think got he general impression/purpose of Flesh (specifically), especially if you have 2 and a decent board they just require very weird removing pattern and even if you manage to do it prolly decent amount of zombies will be left to finish the game. Quite the cock-blocker.
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